In this episode of the RacingInsiders Podcast, Kate welcomed NASA Technology Hall of Fame Member, Buck Parkerfrom Daytona1. As a leader in the performance lubrication industry, Buck bringsa wealth of knowledge in racing lubricants, technology, and performance.
This week Kate and Buck talked about Buck’s nominationto be in the NASA Technology Hall of Fame, space shuttle crawlers, how Daytona1got into NASCAR, parasitic drag, performance lubricants, tire treatments, andDaytona1 Products.
(Kate) I completely understandparasitic drag, but I can never seem to turn around and explain it in the sameway. So, I would love to hear your explanation of parasitic drag, and how itslows down a racecar how we can eliminate parasitic drag, and it can freethings up.
(Buck) Well, first off, you know,lubricants need to go in and lubricate and leave, and lubricate and leave. Whenthey go and lubricate and leave they actually take the heat away from it. So, flowis much better than pressure. And so, you do need a certain amount of pressure,but you need a lot of flow. So, everybody's been at the auto parts store, andyou've taken that little wheel and you rolled it up and down- I know I haveseveral times - and that oil will basically track itself all the way to the topbecause it has stick and also has tackifiers in it, but that type oflubrication is the worst thing that can happen for a race car. For instance, ifyou put a coat on, you know basically you get warm. So, if you take it off, youget cool, okay? So, if we take the parasitic drag away, you will cool down alot more. So, if you put a coat on you get warm, alright, also you don't liveas well. So, if you take it off, then you can move back. So that's very similarsituation in the engine and rear end, transmission, and everything. So, whatyou want to do is allow your oil to go in, lubricate, and leave, let it flowand not let it have sticks on it. That's what they call it. You want todefrictionate it, and that's our word by the way - and you don't want it tohave friction. So, if you take this “friction” away, and allow the frictioneditems to work, then everything's is going to run cooler, it's going to runsmoother, and you're going to get more performance out of either the motor,transmission, rear end, power steering, it doesn't matter where it's at.
(Kate) Talking about gear oil, isthat when that when that oil will stick to itself, and then it sticks on to thesurface.
(Buck) When we, when we firststarted making the gear oils, you really want to see what's happening insidethe rear end. So, we designed a little way that we could put a camera up inthere, so we could see what was going on. And in what was amazing to me is whenyou could actually see the axles that go from the rear end, they're about a inchand a half around or whatever they are, they would almost double in size,because the oil that that was in there- I'm not going to say who’s oil it was,but all that was in there, would basically make that axle get almost twice asbig round. So, you don't want that - that's drag, you know, so if it's stickingto that, like that, and making that get big around, you know, it's sticking toeverything else. So, you really want the oil to flow, you know, to go inlubricate, and leave and to have a constant movement. So that the additivepackages are what stops wear, not the viscosity. Viscosity, you know, does notstop wear, viscosity can cause you problems. So, you want just for instance, inour crate motors, we, you know, we know that there's a specific situation witha lift, you have to have a certain amount of because these are hydraulicfactory lifters, they will lose some of the pumping and half power or RMS ifthat. And I can tell you that story because I dyno tested with Steve Hendren, andwe showed all this horsepower with our with our engine treatment. So, when Isaid my first oil, I'm going to knock this out of the park. So, I built a 20 weight.And that we knew was just going to kill everybody. It didn't have to worryabout any wear, we had it all figured out as far as the protection values andeverything. So I go up with Steve and we put this in, I think he already knew Iwas going to fail. But we run that machine the engine, and I actually losthorsepower. And I said, how do you lose horsepower? I mean, I got the best oilthe world got the best base stocks, I got the best additive package. And he says,“the lifter”. He said, “you got to keep that lifter built up”. He said becausewhen you get the higher RPMs, that lifter will go. So, you think you know,everything that you don't, but you have to listen to these engine buildersbecause they’re smart. And anyway, long story short, so we go back, we put thatother oil back in it, and then we put our engine treatment back on it. And thenwe gained the horsepower that we needed. So I learned a lesson. So, what I alsolearned after that is that normal motor oils that are out there on the shelf,when you buy in base stocks - if you have a 30 weight, it can legally be a 34weight or a 26 weight? Alright, so now, okay, so the guy goes and buys him some30 Weight oil off the shelf or from somebody. And he puts it into his car. Andall of a sudden, he said he's not running as good as it did. You know, he said,All right end of the race, he said, you know, my engine fell off. But theengine didn't fall off. You know, you have to understand that when that allfalls off it when it gets hot, it loses some of its viscosity, it loses some ofthis, some of its thickness and then that that lifter won't stay up. So that'swhy we designed our lowest weight is a 40 weight, we have a 5w40 and a 15w40.The 5W40 is the best. We think that it is the bests oil in the world. As far asa racing standpoint goes, we've got a lot of people that are winning all theraces with it. So undoubtedly, they think so too.
(Kate) There's another importantaspect of fluids and especially with oils in a racing application istemperature. And when we talk about viscosity and we look at you know, talkingabout your 5W40 Let's, let's talk about what those two numbers mean, first ofall, because isn't the five number? Isn't that at zero degrees? Let’s talkabout viscosity. And then we can go into temperatures and race cars.
(Buck) Well, for instance, iszero weight or five weight or 20 weight, the first number is for winter, notweight. So, you know, people say 5W40 it’s a 5 weight, it's not, that 5 standsfor winter. So that's how it flows when it's cold, you know. But you know,that, it, what really matters is, when it's cold it’ll flow, when it's hot, itgets thicker, you know, basically. That's because the, the package that is in itallows it to, when it goes through, it's curved to get thicker. And so, youwant it to flow. A lot of people like to run 20W50. You don't want a 20 weightat 0 degrees, or 30 degrees, you know, because my oil will be at the top of theengine working when that one is still thinking about getting through the pump.And so people need to understand that now that's in the wintertime. And that'swhen it's cold. Now, when it is hot that that 20W50 will flow. I mean it whenit's cold, it doesn't matter what that first number is, as long as your topnumber is where you want at a certain temperature, like our PTRO or our other oils.So how many crate engines are out there? And how many of them run differentfuels? There's a lot of them that that never see over 180 degrees. I was withan engine builder. This was several years back that and he was telling me thatthey take the temperature gauge clean out of the car because he didn't want hispeople, his racer, the racecar driver to see it because he's running 300 plusdegrees. And then I realized the need for the PTRO, at that point. Tuned RacingOil. So you if you're running, say you're running an engine that's runningmethanol, and you never see over 180 degrees, I'd recommend and a lot of times you'llwash down the cylinder walls and it'll contaminate the oil depending on howyour setting is and the oil will get milky. Well, I recommend using our 15W40,because we put an additive package in order to keep that into a suspension towork that the ethanol itself won't separate and an exit to cause all thecorrosion. So, because when you run the methanol and ethanol, and you shut itoff, if you don't have a system to work, it's put into an emulsion and separate,they will separate and then that methanol will cause corrosion inside yourmotor. So that's the last thing that you want.
(Kate) I do want to go intospecifics about engine temperatures, though, because I think when you werebuilding your oils, you also really, you know, there was a big question in thefirst place, whether you're going to do oil, you know, we we've talked about itfor years and years. And you know, because you said, Hey, there's a lot of goodoils out there. But then you dug deeper. And when you saw what was happening tothese oils at higher temperatures, sure some guys are only getting 180 degrees.I think we also talked about there are some engines out there where the engineoil can be 300 degrees, and then what's happening to those oils at 300 degreesand which ones really will stand up. We talked about falling off.
(Buck) People need to understandthat there's people that say, “well I use a synthetic”. Well, that's not goodenough because there's different synthetics there's a lot of differentsynthetics and in what we were finding that the additive packages that they useI mean they will start if you don't use the right additive package and 90% ofthem that are out there that are bought from several companies that are justadded to the base stock and we make our engine treatment we make them in houseso They're specifically designed for the application. But your normal additivepackage will start deteriorating and about 240 to 250, to 60. And, and about270, they really start to deteriorate. So, if you don't have the right package,when the additive starts to deteriorate, and then oil starts deteriorating. Butbasically, that's what makes the oil work. So, it starts deteriorating. Andthen you'll have a fall off on it, you'll have wear, you have all kinds ofthings that go wrong. And then so when we were doing this, you know, and goingback to my buddy, that's the engine builder, he said, there's a need for an oilthat will handle 300 degrees. And so that got me thinking that says, you know,but you know, I'm not going to make a me too type product. I mean, that's just,that's not what we did. We're, you know, we're not a huge company, we're a boutiquespecialty company, our goal is to be the best company and make the bestproducts that we can possibly make in the world. And now we're not cheap. Butwe're not the most expensive, either, but our products, I think, will stand upto anybody else in the world, and maybe a whole lot better than most. So, andI'm not saying that bragging. And that's just the way I feel.
You know, how many times has a racertold you “my car fell off at the end of the race”? You know, we know tires falloff, we know, there are certain things fall off, but we also know that the motoroil falls off. So if we can take that part of the equation out where they don'thave to worry about the motor oil. And, so we fix that problem. Yes, yes,that's it. If you want a great oil, you know, we have two, actually we havefour superior oils- but at some point, we do have a 20W50 in our line now - onlybecause I don't recommend it, but people want it. And you have to give peoplewhat they want. But we make a great 20W50. But if you're going to tell me whatdo I need to go racing with? It's going to be my 5W40 most of the time.
(Kate) You mentioned tires. And Iknow this is a little bit controversial, depending on what area of the countryis listening to this show. But in some areas, you found an area with your tiretreatments. And it really, it kind of circles back to what we first talkedabout with like the Space Shuttle Program and finding a solution that was abiodegradable solution to the space shuttle program. Well, you've taken thosesame parameters, and rather than just yet another tire treatment, that is goingto break down tires, kill the environment, kill animals, you know, harm smallchildren, all of that. You've taken the biodegradable aspect and brought itover to tire treatment. And now tell us about the series in the Midwest, andhow that's working with tires and your tire treatments to talk all about thatseries because I think it's fascinating.
(Buck) Years and years ago,probably 7-8 years ago - I met a friend that’s a racer. He says, you know, canyou make a tire treatment that doesn't burn your eyes and stink like crazy andcost a fortune. So, he told me, he said, well some of the stuff that I use, youcan’t even get into a trailer. And I hadn't been around these products at allat that point in time. So, we started looking into it. And it was sort ofintrigued me that that the technology was so antiquated, and I mean, peoplewere still using creosote and that has been banned for a long time, but they'llfigure out a way to find it and use it. So we started looking into it and wewere able to develop a couple of products that really really work. We have GripBite Aqua, Grip Bite Green, Black, and Blue. That for specific applicationsreally do the job. And there's a need for the products out there, there's a lotof people can't afford to buy new tires every weekend. And so once we once westarted making the products and we got into it a little bit more, and gotinvolved with a with a with a group out in the Midwest, and it just sort ofgrew into a situation now that we've hit we're trying to help build this, this series,it's called the Daytona1 Gen X Late Model Series. And they were already workingwith used tires, they already knew that the need for a racer to be able to go outthere and race affordable. And so they designed the late model that uses a 602top engine, steel bodied shocks, with no valves or anything, no weightadjustment. And you have to use takeoffs - used tires, and they've got there'sall kinds of rules you got to go through it can have so much depth in you canstill sipe them and cut them and treat them and everything do whatever you wantto, to re-tire. But we found that by using the products that we make, we canactually allow that tire to come back to almost new. I mean, they're runningwithin a second as the big boys with new tires, you know, so it's, uh, it's,it's pretty cool. So, we're excited about trying to help the series grow, we wouldlove to see if we can get two or three racetracks down in the south, you know,in two or three other places that might embrace this idealism. But the guys upthere, it seems like it's going to be the fastest growing series in in theMidwest, because people can actually afford to go racing, they don't have tobuy new tires every weekend, and so, for $20,000-$25,000, they can feel a latemodel that really goes fast and really looks great. And the tires work.
(Kate) I think the technologythat you've brought to tire treatments, like you mentioned, it was veryantiquated, you know, whether it's creosote or Tallinn or kerosene, you know,those other ones, I would actually, when I hear some of those chemicals, I kindof think about it, like the idea of marinating meat, you know, the whole idea ofmarinating is to really kind of break up the cell structure. And that releasesthe flavor, like when you're talking about meats and marinating or salt andthings like that. And I would think that some of those really harsh chemicals,what they're doing is they're breaking down the tire making it soft and mushy,because they're breaking it down. And that would make it - I think I know a lotof these series, they say that they ban tire treatments, because eitherdangerous and you know whether it's harsh chemicals, or you're damaging thetire, and you're going to increase the risk of blowouts. Now your tiretreatments aren't like that at all. I always feel like the way I describe themto people are they think about having like a really old leather seat where it’salmost ready to crack. But you put a wonderful leather conditioner on it. Andit's like it brings it back to life and makes it soft and supple. You're notadding anything. You're not changing that it's leather. You're just putting itback in. But maybe you can explain that better.
(Buck) Yeah, well one thingthat's really cool about the products number one, they are totallybiodegradable, non toxic. They, they don't hurt you, they don't smell. And in,you know, some of these products that are out there. You know, you don't wantto get a young child or a pregnant woman next to them because it could causedamage. And I'm not joking when I'm saying you're not really could you know. Oneof the one of the key things that we've learned but by working with a seriesthat in the Midwest for so long is the fact that you know, when you have acaution, these boys race hard and the tires get real hot. And one of the thingsthat they used to have a problem with is that once they caution and then cooleddown, the tires would glaze over. And when they glazed over, they're done.They're, they're done, they might get back, you know, to raise some 10 laps.But if the race is over by then - what our products, we've been fortunate tofind out that our products don't glaze over. All my guys say, But when, whenthe green flag goes up, I can go in. I've gotten more guys that have said thatto me, my tires don't glaze over anymore.
You have to understand what's inthe tire from the factory is a mold release in that and that gets embedded inthe tire. And the mold release basically is nothing but wax. So depending onwho the fellow is that sprayed in that mold that day, is impinging on the tiresand stuff. Every process is different. But you know, they could have more thana certain area less than a certain area, and it gets beat into the tire and itstays on the tire until you take it out. We have a means of doing that. And butthat mold release, if it if it floats itself back to the top after it cools,it's hot and it cools off, then you're riding - and I don't want to say it'sall the mold release because it's not because you got those chemicals. It wasother chemicals in there. But you're riding on a layer of slick stuff. It'sjust, and so until you get it hot enough to get rid that slick stuff again,you're not going anywhere for as far as racing. So, after two or three laps,you might get hot enough to go fast again, you don't have that problem with ours.And so interesting is pretty cool. You know, it's just, you know, anybody thatwants to know, I mean, you know, we're, you know, you've got a lot ofinformation you can send them in if they don't just if they send anything andthey want some information. You know, we'll forward it to, you know, justwhatever you need, because I can't say enough, but I'd love to see the series.The it doesn't have to be the Gen X late model series. I just like to see theseries grow. Because I feel that it will allow the younger racers to move onup. And then it a lot of times the guys that that are up in the higher classesstill want to race, but they don't they don't want to spin you know, tiresexpensive. What are you supposed to do? Spend $1,000 For four tires? Only soyou can race for $800? Like, that's just math. It's makes it hard.
We have a 2000 Chevy C3500 was68,000 original miles. Since we have stopped racing, the truck doesn't getdriven as much anymore, do you have an additive or any suggestions to keep theinside of the engine clean? Black Betty has become a garage queen!
Oh, goodness, gracious. You know,the, you know, first off, the worst thing you can do is crank the motor up andnot let it run. In other words, so if you crank it up, said, “Well, I'm goingto go ahead and crank it up, let it run for five minutes”, but you’re betteroff not starting the engine. Because what happens, it will get just hot enough.And then when it starts cooling off it’ll form moisture, and when it forms ismoisture, and that's when you contaminate your oils and stuff like that. Youknow, we all wanted to buy that car from that lady, and only drove to church onSundays, where she probably didn't drive but a mile and a half. And then a mileand half back- you know what I'm talking about. So that engine would be treatedworse at times, because of the moisture buildup and everything, and she neverchanged the oil because she didn't have 3000 miles on it or 2000 then so shehad end of the term, she didn't realize it but she had a lot of moisture andshe had a lot of corrosion, probably building up, there's a lot of things thatcan go wrong. Now Black Betty, that that he's talking about, you know, it's sittingthere, there is going to be some contamination from just normal temperature changes,you know. But if you will take that car out once a month, at least, and run itand make sure it gets the temperature and run it at temperature for about, youknow, 30-40 minutes or an hour, that will 90% of the time take that moisture outof that motor. And you shouldn't need anything after that, most of theengineers today have a good additive package in them, that takes care ofcontamination. So, I'll say most, you know, we are also made for racing. That'swhat we do. You can put their XL1 engine treatment in there, but it's made togive you performance, you know, it's made to give you longevity, it's made to stopwear, so it will stop corrosion. And that's what it's made for. I’d recommendusing one ounce per quart of our engine treatment it’s just going to help. Butyou still need to take that car out and drive it once a month and get it up to temperature.If people think well, I want to get itout, drive it here and drive it there. As long as you get it to temperature,that's the biggest thing you need to do. But I would recommend if you have aregular car, just use one ounce per quart.
How often should we wash tireswith Grip Bite Aqua?
It really depends on how much yourace, you know, but I would recommend if you go out there, and if you've run,say, a 25 or 30 lap race, after you've treated the tires, I'd recommend justgoing through the entire process, if you run a good race, you know, becauseyou're not going to hurt them to clean them, you know, it's just going to putthem right back and then put your green, blue, or black or whatever we're goingto use only our black is very aggressive. So, I tell people when you use thatthe first time. The second time, make sure you use the green or the bluebecause I don't want you to overdo it. But the black is a strong product but Iwould recommend if anybody's out there, that wants to treat the tires. Use theblues, solid, solid, great product. The green and the blue are very verysimilar except the green will flash quicker. And I've got a lot of asphalt guysthat just rave about it because they can paint the sidewall to sidewall looksbetter. You don't believe some of this. We get some great great people callingin. And then but in that the products work on asphalt, they work on dirt, theywork on anywhere, go karts, big car, little cars, eight inch tires and dragracing tires. It's going to work, wherever it's at it just don't know whereit's at. That's okay.
